SUNDRE – For the first time, council has decided to start regular meetings later in the afternoon as opposed to early in the evening.
Opposed by two councillors, the move came by way of motion following a lengthy debate on Oct. 7 during the annual organizational meeting when council has the opportunity to change meeting dates and start times.
Although council ultimately could choose whatever time it wanted, there were two prepared motions in the agenda – one to maintain the start time at 6 p.m. and an alternate option to bump the time up to 4 p.m. starting on Dec. 2, 2024.
“I think it’s a good idea to change it to earlier so we can get out of here (earlier),” said Coun. Connie Anderson, a local business owner, starting the discussion.
“Is 4 o’clock early enough, or should we be at 3 (p.m.)?” mused Anderson.
Coun. Todd Dalke said he didn’t mind having the discussion but expressed the opinion that each member of council knew what they had signed up for when putting their names up during the 2021 election with the understanding meetings are held at night.
Dalke, who also owns a local business, expressed a concern about putting any members of council in a difficult position with their jobs and by extension potentially creating “serious repercussions” and that if council did decide to make the change that it should be for the incoming council with the next municipal election coming up in 2025.
Coun. Chris Vardas, who runs a couple of local restaurants, empathized with Dalke’s position but said he also agreed with Anderson.
Earlier meetings mean fresher mindset
“When we work a full day shift at our day jobs or our careers and then we have to run home real quick change out, kiss the family, do what you got to do, and then come back to a council meeting at 6 (p.m.) and then stay here until 8:30 or 9 (p.m.) depending on what’s on the agenda, it’s also a little bit hard for everybody sitting on council because your brain is pretty much fried,” said Vardas.
“At the same time, when we’re doing it in the afternoon, when your brain is active, I think we make more educated decisions on what we’re going to do because you’re a little bit more aware.”
Vardas reminded his colleagues they’d also previously discussed the possibility of holding earlier meetings on a trial basis for just one year to see if there were any benefits.
Coun. Jaime Marr, who works a full-time job and was previously running a homebased business on the side when first elected in 2021, acknowledged how an item on an agenda might end up requiring a longer-than-expected debate.
“When you see an agenda item pop up, you don’t realize its significance until discussion happens,” said Marr.
That being said, when the proposal to start meetings sooner was first brought up early on in council’s term, the councillor added she was against it. Finding women who are willing to serve on council is a challenge, she added, and “they need to know what time it’s starting.”
Could decision impact next election?
She also recognized the importance of the discussion and wondered aloud whether scheduling meetings to start a bit sooner would entice or instead perhaps risk deterring potential candidates from running in future elections.
“Next year is an election year. If we move this evening to change the time, does that affect the election?” she asked. “I’d be really curious to see what our community thinks about this.”
Coun. Paul Isaac, who works full time, said the matter has been brought up just about every term that he’s sat on council.
During his second term when council met as often as three Mondays a month, the discussion then was about whether to push the meeting start time to 9 a.m. “which created a lot of negative discussion amongst us as a council because it eliminated a number of people from taking all that time off of work,” said Isaac.
“When you change the time to during the daytime for people that have jobs, I think it does influence their decision to run or not to run,” he said.
Nevertheless, he favoured trying out for the next year starting meetings just a little bit earlier to see how it goes.
“It’s only two hours earlier,” he said.
The councillor also asserted that informing the public well in advance of an impending municipal election is important so potential candidates are aware of expectations prior to submitting their paperwork.
Inevitable trend
Additionally, he felt the change will inevitably come one way or another; whether at noon, earlier in the morning or even mid-afternoon.
“I don’t know. But at some point in time, it will change,” he said.
“Because to work eight, nine hours a day, and then to read 130 pages and be prepared and then meet from 6 (p.m.) to 9, or 6 to 8, and to be on committees, is asking too much – if you want to do decent job, and have a family,” he said.
“I think there’s a balance somewhere; I don’t know what the balance is.”
Picking up on a point raised by Marr, Vardas agreed that the change to meet earlier might influence a person’s decision on whether to run. But the same applies for meetings that can run late at night, he added.
“It’s half a dozen of one, half a dozen of the other,” said Vardas.
“I think this is a perfect opportunity for this council today to test drive it for a year,” he said, adding most councils across Alberta are slowly but surely headed in that direction.
Municipal councillors are not compensated very much, but they play a very important role in their communities. The decisions they make affect residents and businesses, he said, adding they should therefore meet earlier in the afternoon with a fresher mindset.
“A lot of times we come at night, a lot of us are tired,” he said, expressing a concern about times when members may feel rushed to simply get through a drawn-out discussion.
As a point of order, mayor Richard Warnock, sought a proposed resolution.
“We’re discussing the pros and cons without a motion on the floor,” Warnock said, asking his colleagues if any would be unable to remain on council if meetings for the next year were to be scheduled at 4 p.m.
Difficult balance for some
“It does put a lot more pressure on me next year not to run again,” said Dalke. “It’s harder for me to make that commitment.”
But the councillor said he’d nevertheless try to attend meetings if a majority of council opted to go in that direction.
Seeking additional information, Marr asked administration if holding meetings later at night presented an increase cost as a result of staff overtime.
“No,” said Linda Nelson, chief administrative officer. “Unless we’re bringing staff to these meetings who are not salaried employees, then it impacts our budget line.”
Coun. Owen Petersen, who works a flexible full-time position, ultimately moved the alternate option to start meetings at 4 p.m. effective Dec. 2.
“It’s taken a long time to convince me into this – the whole term of council,” Petersen said, referencing information outlined in the updated municipal development plan which indicates that sales and service positions are among the largest occupational categories of local jobs.
“There’s always going to be folks that can or can’t put their name forward for council, but we have actually – by having evening meetings – probably eliminated a lot of folks that work in the sales and service industry that work well into the evening,” he said.
“If we go at 4 (p.m.), we open up opportunity for them, we might close opportunity for others – there’s no way to get everybody for sure,” he said.
“But I am in support of this small change for a year to see how it goes, and the next council can decide what they’re going to do.”
Speaking in favour, Vardas said council owes it the public to at least try it out for a year.
Administrative staff’s time also a factor
Speaking against, Dalke was skeptical the change would prompt “an overwhelming group of council and administration saying, ‘Yes, 4 o’clock would work best for me.’”
But Nelson offered upon being asked another perspective. Speaking candidly, the administrator said, “If we could cut two hours out of our day, that would be amazing. Remembering we start at 8 (a.m.) and we’re here sometimes until 9, 10 (p.m.). It is a long day.”
Marr appreciated the honest reply and recognized council’s decisions also affect administrative staff.
“We want to have a really great work-life balance,” she said.
But she nevertheless spoke against the motion from the perspective of a parent who initially ran because she was able to take care of her kids after school and still have plenty of time to prepare for the council meeting.
Anderson countered by pointing out that children need someone looking after them regardless of the time, while Marr said evenings are more challenging as daycares that are already on waiting lists are typically closed then.
Decision could always be reversed next year
“This is a decision for one year. This is a decision that council gets to make every single year,” Petersen reminded his colleagues. “I don’t think it needs to be necessarily about the next council and the next year; it needs to be this council, this year and I’m in support of it for that reason.”
Dalke opposed the motion but expressed an amenability to starting meetings at 5 p.m.
Isaac had nothing further to add but said, “The way councillor Petersen put it was pretty perfect.”
Vardas spoke in favour and said looking back to his first time on council that he also had children who were growing up.
“These are sacrifices we make for our community,” he said, adding he was “all for” trying it out for one year.
Warnock, who is retired, spoke in favour.
“It’s our job to do the job to the best of our ability,” the mayor said, adding there was a change during the last term of council to reduce the number of monthly meetings to two.
He also expressed a preference for making decisions of clearer mind by not coming to meetings “dog tired” and feeling pressured to rush through the last part of long agenda.
“I don’t believe it’s a big change,” he said, adding many towns in area have already changed.
A few have maintained nighttime meetings, such as Didsbury and Carstairs, but “all the rest are in the daytime,” he said.
“Daytime council meetings are become the normal in society.”
The mayor then called a vote on the motion, which carried with Marr and Dalke opposed.
“What a great discussion. Talk about debate,” said Warnock. “This is what makes council what it’s all about.”
